On )o( we don't call it anything other than the mino in game. nobody calls it omnitaur... actually, not ever. really, renaming it would be pointless, because its pretty much the same thing anyway. we have our own skin and settings, DW has theirs, and you could have yours! after all, i could go to china and order a Coke~a~cola and get an entirely different flavored beverage than we have in the US. so dont get too hung up on a name that wont make a difference(because people will always associate it as the "Mino")

also consider this:
when Gorz made the mino, he had a counterpart vehicle to out match it. (like rock paper scissors) the toned down version that doesn't "Smash gameplay" is basically whats on DW. you see, i have more experience with driving the mino than anyone in here. when i joined the game, many years ago, the mino was still very new. it actually intimidated me a bit(Shhh....) . i came to find, that the mino is only as good as the crew inside. so when you say its overpowering, i say its balanced. the fact that i can evade most gunners (upon approaching it in my Stinger) and destroy it within seconds- makes me wonder what removing the (oh too useful)minigun is actually gonna help with... i laugh when the mino driver only has one gunner(even more when he has none). it makes him volnerable beyond reason. if i could code... i would give the driver control of kicking that Eff'n spammer lazer gunner out of his seat. sending a flare is right, i'd rather have an upward shooting MG turret like a goliath. now, the point of a "supertank" is to sway game play. a good mino(omnitaur;)) driver can help a team get back lost ground(dria being the most prime example). but a team holding any type of lead shouldn't have a problem taking him down

in summation, my suggestion is to make sure the finished product can support some type of relevancy(as far as being useful in-game) and is not an "easy kill." also, make sure the skin turns out awesome. i would like to see it have something along the style of the EONScorpion(the turbo one) with its maroon/dark blue hue.

but carry on, i'd never tell you your valued time has been put to waste. the game has to evolve in order to survive... and i never turn down a chance to try out a new tank. now, if i could only get the 'Wild Boar' to be as cool as it 'could be'...

deej

ps- if you guys think the mino is bad... what do you think of the Hurricane? i personally think its way worse.

djay-t wrote:

ps- if you guys think the mino is bad... what do you think of the Hurricane? i personally think its way worse.

It is mainly me who has an issue with that . I guess you can call me an old-school Onslaughter, who needed to do his usual rant

Off-topic but for Pegasus (I hate you, you have made me want to fiddle with Uscript again with all your messing around with the Eurotaur ):
Here is something to solve an issue you mentioned something like two weeks ago.

Use summon redfull.redfullpickup and there you go 999 ammo for your tests.

I may have to double post or delay some replies since there's so much ground to cover here, we'll see.

VK first:
vk__ wrote:
Peg, i am using the skin with the black/red black/blue version in reichstag for now, and the skins originally come from WOt [...]If u can edit the normal goliath to an stronger version with 1000hp, would be nice to use in reichstag, than the mino needs 2 shots to destroy.
First off, thanks for going through the trouble of creating or porting over a skin for the vec, much appreciated. If the eurotaur skin now used in Reichstag is directly taken from another source, plz do let me know so it can be mentioned in the code comments as of next version (adding it also somewhere in the map's classes' code wouldn't hurt either). Two more things quickly:
- I think it'd be best to keep Reichstag specific issues discussed in its own thread, both because it'll keep things tidy everywhere, but also because this thread could start moving toward any number of theoretical and practical directions and something might get lost or overlooked.
- I've particularly averse even to the idea of changing retail content's behaviour and still presenting the result as a standard game element and that's a position I'd hold in any online game where you can find community created content. In a gametype like ONS where the environment can gradually change even on a weekly/monthly basis both in terms of gameplay mechanics, but also lesser, isolated stuff like custom vecs/weaps, players rely on standard game assets to be their crutch and help them process everything different in each new map they try. Usurping and messing with that connection would not only be jarring to most, but also unfair. Ppl expect a vec that looks like the goliath to feel and play exactly like they know the goliath does and no different just as they expect to gain health or armour when they run over a health/armour pickup or to get more weaps when they go to a weap locker. Messing with such fundamental stuff because the mapper was looking for an "easy" way out of some imbalance issue can range from unfair to enfuriating. Not only that, but it's certain to break more than it fixes since balancing is a manifold problem with more actors and variables than you might plan or account for while applying your "minor" retail vec "fix". Long story short, always, ALWAYS hesitate to edit stock content if you plan to have the result appear exactly like its source. If you want a 1000hp goliath, you must make a custom vec and it must be understood by all that it's no longer a goliath.
That I can certainly help you with (although I think you could even tweak that property from inside UEd yourself by looking into the onshovertankfactories' stats), but I have very strong reservations that the way to fix imbalances brought about by the introduction of a single custom vec is by rippling that further away, changing even more vecs with which it might interact and they're supported by years of online gaming experience across multiple genre games. It's the very definition of a slippery slope practice.


Lila and the naming convo crowd:

I too have an idea about the naming! How about everyone submit up to 5 of their favourite names then we'll appoint a cross-community 7-person committee to deliberate on the pros and cons of each choice for at least a month (voting on committee members handled separately, of course) and once that's through and they've narrowed it down to the 5 best ones, we'd hold a 3 week poll with multiple voting options and a 50 ppl participation minimum to reach the coveted community/committee approved combo that everyone'd be happy with!
Or I could just say, "I merely picked a name I came up with in 20secs just to convey the basic idea behind this test, it's nothing permanent." How about we discuss naming choices and practices after it becomes relevant?

Come to think of it, Aphrodite sounds cool too, but only if we get VK to skin it pink with a big Hello Kitty decal covering most of the turret. That's something I'd totally feel comfortable jumping in and rolling around with.

Also,
lilalurl wrote:
[...]You could also go for a realistic name such as "SlightlyLessButStillOverpoweredTank" [...]1) That's what she said.
2) This was my first idea too!

Anyway, moving on...

Regarding laser turret strength, the fact that even nerfed the eurotaur's turret is still one of the most lethal in ONS isn't lost on me, I assure you. Hell, I even presented the full list in my previous post not only to demonstrate exactly where among the ranks it'd stand, but also to put it into perspective for everyone. Either way, given the opposition minos encounter on the maps they're usually in (mostly other fast/strong custom vecs or, worse, custom flyers), if you agree with the mentality of "a 1-turret mino is more balanced than a 2-turret mino", I'd honestly like to know what you think the best stats for the turret (damage output, projectile type) should be.
One more point here: pitting any mino variant against retail vecs in open maps like Torlan will almost always favour the mino simply because the gunner can afford to give the flyer full attention from the first second it emerges through the fog. Either way, in my experience the flyer vs mino Torlan scenario isn't the most representative or common case (usually other factors come into play like world geometry cover and other distractions which provide a window for a determined airborne attacker to get in and do some damage). That's why working towards more unbiased raptor vs mino fights isn't that high in my gameplay balancing priorities. What most drove me to action was all the damn node pounding in minimal flyer maps like Minus, Dria, Kakmo and NevermoreTMU (DW mino there with reduced splash, but still), etc. Besides, mino vs stock flyers only happens in MagicIsle (v10 mostly and only if there's nothing else to pick) and Kakmo, IIRC. Anyway, I'm hoping the eurotaur will get the chance to appear in some future version of those maps and if/when that happens, you can be sure I'll keep my ears peeled for any and all observations.

lilalurl wrote:
Off-topic but for Pegasus (I hate you, you have made me want to fiddle with Uscript again with all your messing around with the Eurotaur ): Here is something to solve an issue you mentioned something like two weeks ago.[...]Bwahahaha, enjoy the catchy Uscript microbe! I hear it can stay in your system even for a month before you kick it :p. Anyway, while the custom deemer is a way to go about it, I was looking for a couple of ingame set commands to do the same thing, to which the answer turns out to be "set RedeemerAmmo maxammo 20" and "set RedeemerAmmo initialamount 20", then touch a deemer pickup. If, however, this must be done while holding a deemer, I've yet to figure out the right inventory ammo altering command to go from 1 to 20. Thanks though.


More to follow...

pegasus_ wrote:
Bwahahaha, enjoy the catchy Uscript microbe! I hear it can stay in your system even for a month before you kick it :p.

Don't worry, there is a immunizing agent called real life

Long post ahead.

djay-t wrote:
On )o( we don't call it anything other than the mino in game. nobody calls it omnitaur... actually, not ever. really, renaming it would be pointless, because its pretty much the same thing anyway. we have our own skin and settings, DW has theirs, and you could have yours![...] so dont get too hung up on a name that wont make a difference(because people will always associate it as the "Mino")[...]when Gorz made the mino, he had a counterpart vehicle to out match it. (like rock paper scissors) the toned down version that doesn't "Smash gameplay" is basically whats on DW.[...]Omnitaur is the classname Gorz probly used to tell the newer mino apart from its predecessor, which now exists only in Nightwolf map edits (the one that occasionally spins out when shot). Still, I never regarded either one as a "solution" to the other since they're both ridiculously strong; more like sibling giants than yin and yang.

djay-t wrote:
[...]you see, i have more experience with driving the mino than anyone in here. when i joined the game, many years ago, the mino was still very new. it actually intimidated me a bit(Shhh....)[...]I doubt anyone voicing their views on the mino here does so out of ignorance; it's more sober realism at this point. One or two years' head start or not, I assure you we've all had plenty of time to meet the mino and we know full well what it can do. At this point I doubt anything about it surprises us, much less scare us into knee-jerk reacting. Numbness, however, towards imbalance can be a bad thing too, esp. when ppl have come to accept getting mino spawnkilled as normal.

djay-t wrote:
[...]i came to find, that the mino is only as good as the crew inside. so when you say its overpowering, i say its balanced.[...]Any vec/weap's effectiveness largely depends on its handler's skill (see newb vs pro in iDM match for more proof), but to measure balance and "objective" lethality you need an "equally skilled players" hypothesis. I've known that since my early online gaming days discussing unit balancing in RTS communities and it's true for any genre. The "specialized role" and/or rock-paper-scissors design approach gives units advantages but also requires they all have weaknesses so the food chain remains cyclical and not pyramid-like. The mino's not like that and that's why in an equal skill scenario, it'll win 95% of the time against other vehicle types. It is, therefore, by definition imbalanced.

djay-t wrote:
[...]the fact that i can evade most gunners (upon approaching it in my Stinger) and destroy it within seconds- makes me wonder what removing the (oh too useful)minigun is actually gonna help with[...]Heh, Stinger, what an undriveable mess; either don't accel or spin out by design. Anyway, many of us have our own mino takedown stories of epic awesomeness just like yours, but often this is against a mino crew of less skilled ppl. Otoh, if you were in that mino, wouldn't you have just switched to mini and taken the Stinger out? Any mino driver as skilled and savvy as their attacker knows the proper way to defend against 'em. Thing is, citing exceptional cases of success vs minos doesn't mean they're necessarily the rule. Statistically, you'll lose more than you win and even more so vs equal enemies since they're in a stronger vehicle. Removing the mini was in line with toning it down because it was too strong.

djay-t wrote:
[...]i'd rather have an upward shooting MG turret like a goliath.[...]Of course you would; it's more subtle and stronger (all pros, no cons) which is why it's imbalanced and I removed it. The euro's turret carries more inherent risks.

djay-t wrote:
[...]now, the point of a "supertank" is to sway game play[...]DJay, the mino doesn't just "sway" ONS, it totally warps gameplay around it. Take Minus for example. In the mino versions, the game flow will usually turn every 100secs as a new mino is about to spawn no matter how good the other 15 ppl are (next best scorers usually have 60% of that of career mino whores). The new mino will clear our contested primaries, then roll clear through center until its careless driver takes enough hits (or gets it stuck) and dies or is cautious and decides to pull it back for repairs which can take 20-40secs. At that time enemy mino spawns and its part of the vicious circle begins. Everyone else in the middle is left to play the fodder's part. This is a clear gameplay steamroller effect and it's also how a typical Minus match goes (esp. BigAl version where minos dominate), but just to be sure, lemme ask: how many 32p Minus games have you seen won without a mino (and enemy team wasn't useless with all theirs)? I'm guessing less than 10%.

The above example reflects a more general phenomenon where the game ceases to be ONS in which vecs are tools to be used and lost trying to turn enemy nodes and push on, rather it turns into a "support your mobile castle to win" paradigm and the ubervec is now the point of the game itself. Funny thing is if you think about it, Epic wanted something like this with levis and they even designed and balanced it to be the lumbering, strategic importance vehicle, but nobody bothered. You know why? Because unlike the levi, the mino doesn't have any weakness other than that peculiar bio damtype allergy which very few knew about (before I started my educational campaign about it anyway).
In most genre games I've come across featuring multiplayer, the vec design always abided by the tenet "speed, power, armour: pick two". All UT retail vecs adhere to this as well as most custom ones which makes 'em more or less balanced. The mino clearly breaks this pattern by being strong, thick AND quick (within a matter of seconds) so the rock-paper-scissors principle is out the window and now we're talking about a colossal game design 101 blunder, i.e. the crux of the problem. No other nuances are in place to act as skill checks either, so as long as the driver doesn't blow themself up, they're set to go. I'm really baffled how nobody at omni ever protested about all this during the mino's beta/"balancing" stage or anytime later :/. Actually, who were the principal omni testers and how into the ONS gametype were they during that period anyway?

Another oddity that emerged from the mino gameplay vortex was that it begun to resonate with a group of ppl - mostly from omni, but other tank whores too :p. Since it doesn't really take much skill to spam with it, the mino became the "great equalizer", allowing even the worst server regular to turn a match around alone - the ultimate shortcut to effortless stardom! So now the vec's own imbalance becomes the main reason for its cult following (you know things have gone wrong when you see ppl who can only contribute or enjoy ONS when they're in a mino) because everyone wants a go at the theme park main attraction. Older and more skilled players start getting frustrated, but their voices are drowned out by a bigger crowd chasing the omni american dream who are okay with camping for days at the same place or getting spawnkilled repeatedly as long as they get a chance to grab the next mino. And even if they don't today, it's all cool 'cause they'll get it tomorrow or the day after so it'll be worth it in the end... right? How much more numb, desensitized and Stockholm syndrome afflicted can you get to the daily rape minos bring? Finally, if you either happen to miss your chance at a mino or, for some odd reason, you prefer not to use one, your role is now reduced to a support character and you're only left with 2 equally crappy choices: either get behind your team mino, or be irrelevant. Whole thing, then, boils down to one person's fun vs 16 (31?) others' misery. Mino fans seem to find this okay, but I think it's not. Not by mine and not by many others' standards of what a skillful ONS game with balanced vecs should be. It's time something changed.

djay-t wrote:
[...]but a team holding any type of lead shouldn't have a problem taking him down[...]A truism, really. If the team's collective skills are higher, they'll obviously take it down, but it'll still take more effort than fighting any other vec, esp. in maps like Minus where world geometry is also on the mino's side. If both teams are of comparable skill, mino team will always crush a mino-less team. That's because... the mino's imbalanced.

djay-t wrote:
[...]in summation, my suggestion is to make sure the finished product can support some type of relevancy(as far as being useful in-game) and is not an "easy kill."[...]Well, it's 90% as relevant as the mino minus a turret. I'd say that's more than just relevant, probably still a bit overpowered, but we'll make it better. As for easy kill, same reasoning as for the normal mino applies.

djay-t wrote:
[...]ps- if you guys think the mino is bad... what do you think of the Hurricane? i personally think its way worse.The hurricane's imbalanced too, but less than the mino. Its shots are brighter and easier to spot from afar (nightly maps also help there), plus they are slower and easier to dodge in most vecs. They don't do as much damage as a mino shell with a much smaller radius, so there's really no comparison here. Rocket spam is lame and BW demanding, but also dodgeable in many vecs (psychological pressure element). Hurricane lasers are about as lethal as the mino's turrets. Finally, it moves a bit faster than the mino, but it only seats 2 (and active gunner = lightshow), it's a bigger target and it's found in fewer maps, so let's not chase after red herrings here and focus on making a more sane mino for now. We'll get to the hurricane in due time.